Montreal City Weblog

Kate 11:30 on 2019-02-03 Permalink Reply  

• Ian 12:02 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  That’s all very nice but the reality is that there are Anglo schools with low enrollment. It’s only the most desirable schools that have lineups.
  The first come first served method still being used is kind of weird though. FACE hasn’t had lineups for many years now, but some of my friends when I was in university some 30 odd years ago used to be paid by parents to camp out in front of FACE like the scalpers used to do in front of the forum. Perhaps unsurprisingly the scalper campers and the school campers were often the same seedy weirdos which must have been an extra joy for those parents that decided to camp out themselves.

• Joey 12:52 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  Mike Cohen is back!

  “It’s the greatest form of flattery,” Cohen said. “We have been asked: ‘Can’t you do something for the parents and let them inside the school for the weekend?’ People have to understand our registration is Monday morning. We don’t advertise that people have to sleep on the street. We simply say for the whole system, that’s when registration begins. There happens to be a growing number of schools that are extremely popular, and parents know that if they go sleep outside, there’s an honour system and that will be a way for them to get into the school. We don’t discourage it, but we don’t promote it.”

  Why not just run a lottery?

• Michael Black 13:03 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  I’ve always thought that while the end goal of getting a place is real, some parents like the idea of reliving their youth when they’d wait in line to get concert tickets. “I’m still cool.” But now that they are parents, somehow it’s seen as some horrible experience. Though, once someone gets in line, it kind of forces others to do so.

  Another aspect is that it may give more value to the schools. I used to line up on boxing day at Sam the Record Man, because the deals were worthwhile. The line made sense, it was a small space. Eventually the deals were no longer worth the effort.

  But other stores adopted the practice, and some of that seemed more about hype, a line makes the store seem more desirable. So the libe became promotion, people passing by will think the deslsxafe really good, and get in line.

  So the line at the schools amplify whatever was already there.

  Michael

• jeather 13:37 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  The specific schools with lines are, in fact, oversubscribed. So you wait in line or your kid gets bussed to whatever school has space, and then moved around as needed because they are lowest priority once they are out of their catchment area. It’s a pretty shitty system, and it screws over parents who can’t wait in line, but I am not sure what you think parents who want their kids in a local school should do. (Many French schools are also oversubscribed, though I don’t know if the ones in NDG are.)

  I don’t get why they are doing this dumb Coronation annex school plan instead of the earlier plan of let Coronation be a new school.

• Mark Côté 15:01 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  I believe most, if not all, the CSDM schools in NDG are also overcrowded: https://montrealgazette.com/news/new-ecole-sainte-catherine-de-sienne-wont-solve-overcrowding-at-n-d-g-schools (article is from 2017 but I don’t believe the situation is any better now)

• Kevin 18:07 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  There are three elementary schools in NDG debating over what to do with the former St.Ignatius of Loyola.
  It is easier and cheaper, administratively, for one of the schools to make it an annex.

  If none want it, it’ll become an independent school.

• jeather 18:38 on 2019-02-03 Permalink

  The initial plan was for a new school. That was shot down, apparently by the other schools, and now one of them will get it as a second campus (K-2, 3-6).

  Seems odd to me — easier to have 4 K-6 than to split up siblings.

• dhomas 03:51 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  The schools which are oversubscribed at the EMSB are generally those offering a full French immersion program. Not all of them do; some offer a bilingual program and “English Core”. The three listed in the articles are all French immersion schools, making them desirable to parents. Royal Vale has the extra advantage of offering a Hebrew studies program for an additional 1000$/year (this price may have changed as my info is a couple of years old). This is a bargain compared to private schools which are in the $8k/year (or more!) range. Furthermore, students eligible for English education can choose any school they want, given availability (i.e. you are not restricted to sending your child to a school in your immediate vicinity). The priority goes 1) siblings, 2) local students, 3) everyone else. Source: my wife and sister both teach at the EMSB.

  That said, the whole camping out thing is ridiculous. Can’t they just put up a website where you can register online, then have a lottery? Seems like a more sensible option.

  Since that’s not the case, I’m right now (at close to 3 in the morning) getting ready to go register my kid for kindergarten. The school I want has about 50 spots available, so I didn’t feel the need to camp out all weekend, but still, you can never be too sure.

• Kevin 09:13 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  The hilarious bit is that programs at one school are often open to all. For instance, children at Wilingdon head over to Royal Vale once a week to go rock climbing…

• jeather 10:18 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  Right, Hampstead school, which is neither bilingual nor immersion, has lots of room (though my understanding is that it set up especially for kids with special needs). I don’t know what about Elizabeth Ballantyne.

  Having room for extra students to go rock climbing 2 hours a week is far from having room for more students in English and French and math every single day.

• Tim S. 12:28 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  Mike Cohen: “It’s the greatest form of flattery”
  No it’s not, it’s a sign of incompetence that you’re not meeting the needs of your population.
  Also, regarding the idea of a lottery, etc., some parents were worrying that such a system could be gamed or open to interference, and knowing what I do about the EMSB I don’t blame them.

• Tim S. 12:56 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  Also, I don’t get why the EMSB doesn’t mix streams in its schools. I went to a school on the south shore that had a French Immersion stream and an English stream, and it worked fine. If anything, it made it easier for kids to switch programs when necessary without having to change schools. Surely it wouldn’t be too hard to open up a French immersion stream (seeing as that’s what’s oversubscribed) in some of less crowded English-core schools.

• mare 16:58 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  Is this really true? People have the highly coveted right to go to English schools, a right not available to the majority of the population, not even to children of immigrants from the RoC and the US, and then they put their kids in FRENCH IMMERSION?

  Can’t they just send their kids to a French school where they get the true immersive experience?
  I get why kids in other provinces put their kids in immersive schools, there are no French schools and knowing more than one language is always a plus, but we don’t exactly lack the possibility to be schooled in French here.

  People are weird.

• Michael Black 17:52 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  But the school boards used to be split along religious lines.

  The Catholic board had both French and English schools, though maybe more of the former. The Protestsnt board was all English, I don’t remember any French schools. But late sixties, early seventies, Royalvale started offering French immersion, everything in French. So it became a destination school, rather than local. I know it felt like a lot of kids disappeared in grade 7, only to show up the next year, this is 1972. They did a year of immersion, then back to “regular” high school, and it seemed like the kids in grade 7 all came from the other local elementary school.

  One good reason for this is that it keeps that right to English schools. If they’d gone to a “French school” maybe their children would have lost access, I’m not sure.

  Michael

• Tim S. 19:18 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  mare: lots of reasons. But the two most important ones (at least for my family) are 1) that French and English teaching cultures are somewhat different, and if you prefer the English style, French immersion in an English school allows you to get the best of both worlds (ideally). Just as an example, from what I gather anecdotally, English schools are much more open to parental involvement, if that’s your thing
  Secondly, in a French immersion school, even while the child learns French, you’re still part of your local anglo community, which is important to those people who actually belong to an established community. The administration is in English, so parent communication is in English too. From what I know of English speakers who are obliged to send their children to French schools for 101 reasons, not being able to communicate effectively with the teachers and administration is a major obstacle. Also, the quality of English education is likely higher.
  And yes, signing your children up to the EMSB means their kids will be 101 eligible, which they wouldn’t be if they went to the French system.

• dhomas 21:58 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  @mare: French immersion in grade school is for grades 1, 2, and 3. In these grades, only English class is in English. Grades 4, 5, and 6 are mixed with a little more than half the course time in English and the rest in French. I went to French grade school. I spoke better English than my English teacher and learned nothing in English class. I needed to take remedial English classes before starting at my English High School. I’d rather my children learn both languages well from their youngest years.

  @Tim S.: mixed streams don’t always work so well.Outside of class, not everyone is speaking French. Students from the French immersion program have too much access to English (or rather, not speaking French). It kinda dilutes the whole immersion experience. Also, I agree with you that Michael Cohen seems to be a massive, incompetent tool.

• mare 22:29 on 2019-02-04 Permalink

  @Tim S. and dhomas: Thanks for the explanations.

• Kevin 00:27 on 2019-02-05 Permalink

  @dhomas
  That is not how immersion works at the EMSB.
  Immersion is 100% French in all classes in K,1,2.
  They don’t get any English-language instruction until Grade 3.
  They do, however, speak English in all before and after school programs and at lunch.

  @Tim S.
  kids don’t actually have to go to an English school board. They just need to apply for and get their provincial certificate.

  @dhomas
  The cultural gap is bigger than the language gap. French public schools are *severely* messed up, which is why Quebec is number one or number two in private school attendance.

• dhomas 05:45 on 2019-02-05 Permalink

  @Kevin: you’re right, it’s K, 1, and 2 that are entirely in French. English starts in grade 3. I should have paid closer attention during the school’s open house! My bad.

• Tim S. 09:07 on 2019-02-05 Permalink

  @ Kevin: I did not know that (evidently). It wouldn’t have changed much for my family if I had, but some other folks I know might have made different choices if that process was better publicized.

• jeather 11:16 on 2019-02-05 Permalink

  If you want English AND French taught, you’re stuck in an immersion or bilingual (week all English, week all French) school, because the French schools teach very little English. (You don’t lose your eligibility if you go to a French school, though, so you can still pass it on to siblings/children.)