Quebec is of two minds about immigration
Although Quebecers say they welcome diversity, we’re also suspicious of Islam in particular and think of it as a threat.
I’ve been hesitant to pursue the whole Bill 21 mess in detail, but Ingrid Peritz provides a good vignette and summary. On Facebook, I read an anecdote – not officially reported or corroborated, so take it for what it’s worth – that two women in hijab were declined for jobs in a daycare, even though the law is not meant to apply to daycare workers: that employers beyond the remit of Bill 21 will feel justified in turning down applications from people wearing religious symbols (which means, for the most part, women in hijab) is to be expected: if the government won’t employ them, why should we?
denpanosekai 09:27 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
Somewhat related, I’ve been seeing more and more “smoking weed is haram” stickers in the metro, particularly around Peel and McGill stations. I mean they’re probably not wrong, but I didn’t need the memo or vandalism.
Chris 14:49 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
I’ve said it before and will say it again: Islam is a collection of mostly bad ideas. And there’s nothing wrong with criticizing (bad) ideas. Some incorrectly conflate criticizing Islam with being bigoted against Muslims. If one criticizes capitalism or vegetarianism, it doesn’t necessarily mean one thinks capitalists and vegetarians should be shunned, denied jobs, killed, etc. (Some may think both.) It just means you disagree with some of their ideas. Likewise Islam and Muslims. Bill 21 is bad, and Islam is bad, there is no contradiction there.
denpanosekai, Quran 5:90-91 basically say that intoxicants are not allowed. It’s therefore a reasonable interpretation to say weed is haram. Of course, there are as many interpretations of Islam as there are Muslims. 🙂
Kate 16:22 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
Chris, the debate is not about whether we like any given religion’s theories. The debate is about whether we’re going to deny someone a livelihood because they’re wearing a scarf or other symbol. One of the things I’ve read about Bill 21 is that it tends to support an assumption that we know what’s going on in somebody else’s head. We don’t.
Kevin 17:32 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
So how long until people are cited for wearing wedding rings unless they can prove they had a civil ceremony?
qatzelok 19:00 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
“denpanosekai, Quran 5:90-91 basically say that intoxicants are not allowed.”
Yes, so the debate is whether weed is an intoxicant. Pot’s first use was as an oral medicine, unlike alcohol, which was created (by Muslims) to disinfect things. So alcohol is an intoxicant because you are drinking disinfectant. And this disinfectant causes permanent IQ damage, unlike weed.
My question is why do literate people need these simplistic short-cuts called religious texts?
Kate 19:52 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
qatzelok, you and Chris should go have a coffee and congratulate each other on being such enlightened, clear-eyed members of your species.
You do not know what others are thinking or what they believe. Any person’s relationship with a religious text is going to be more complex and nuanced than you can possibly guess. Religious writings, like any others, are human artifacts and, as such, are windows into human creativity and the human mind. As such they’re valuable and you dismiss them at your peril.
qatzelok 21:58 on 2019-05-18 Permalink
Kate, I assure you that I have read many religious texts, and respect those who have read them as well. My issue is with people who have ONLY read specific religious texts and put too much weight on them because they don’t read other texts to add more information from other writers.
I am not personally threatened by superstition or ignorance, but our society is. And limiting one’s knowledge to a single ancient text is bad methodology for improving yourself or society. It’s a return to the Dark Ages of religious fear.
Likewise, wearing your religion around your neck is offensive to many people. Just like wearing gay rainbow flags over your head (while you teach kindergarden). Rainbow flags are fine: but kindergarden is for teaching other things.
Kate 08:00 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
As to the latter, that does not seem to be a problem.
I say again, it’s not the texts, it’s the complexity. You (and others) seem to think wearing a symbol necessarily implies the wearer has a literal and simplistic belief in the assumed religion to the exclusion of all else. You can’t know that. You’re making a huge assumption.
mare 09:01 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
@qatzelok I raise you a Children’s Bible Club with a rainbow flag. Symbols mean different things in different cultures, in The Netherlands the rainbow is appropriated by fundamentalist Christians.
http://www.colmschate.info/targets/introonly/de_regenboog_logo.jpg
Chris 11:50 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
Kate, you said “the debate is not about whether we like any given religion’s theories”, yet your first sentence of this thread included “[Quebecers are] suspicious of Islam in particular.” i.e. Quebecers don’t like some of Islam’s theories.
“You do not know what others are thinking or what they believe.” -> You do when they tell you! There is lots of polling on Muslim opinion. Like I pointed out the other day, less than 2/3 of (Middle Eastern) Muslims agree with “It is up to a women to dress as she wishes in public”. In public! Not just judges/cops/teachers.
The Devoir article says 32% of Quebecers think it’s important for practitioners of Islam to proselytize. That is substantially *lower* than what Muslims themselves think: https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-interfaith-relations/
“You [qatzelok] (and others) seem to think wearing a symbol necessarily implies the wearer has a literal and simplistic belief in the assumed religion to the exclusion of all else” -> I, for one, do no believe that *at all*. Some people wear the hijab only because it’s required by law, some wear it because they fear family reactions of removing it, some wear it because of religious devotion, etc. there are a zillion reasons.
You, on the other hand, seem to think that theists view religious texts though a nuanced skeptical eye and have a romantic view of them as ancient art and a window into the human soul. If only more thought as you! Again, we have polling: ex, when asked if Sharia was developed by man or is the revealed word of a supernatural being, the majority literally think the latter: https://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ Many many many people take these old books seriously and literally!
Again, Bill 21 is stupid! Wear a hijab, collider, or nothing at all, I don’t care. But let’s not pretend that the doctrine of Islam is all rainbows and unicorns and never question/criticize it in the name of “diversity”.
Chris 13:46 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
“You do not know what others are thinking or what they believe.” -> You do when they tell you! There is lots of polling on Muslim opinion. Like I pointed out the other day, less than 2/3 of (Middle Eastern) Muslims agree with “It is up to a women to dress as she wishes in public”.
The Devoir article says 32% of Quebecers think it’s important for practitioners of Islam to proselytize. That is substantially *lower* than what Muslims themselves think: pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-interfaith-relations/
“You [qatzelok] (and others) seem to think wearing a symbol necessarily implies the wearer has a literal and simplistic belief in the assumed religion” -> I don’t believe that *at all*. Some people wear the hijab only because it’s required by law, some wear it because they fear family reprisals for removing it, some wear it because of religious devotion, etc. there are a zillion reasons.
You seem to think that theists view religious texts though a nuanced skeptical eye and have a romantic view of them as ancient art and a window into the human soul. If only more thought as you! Again, we have polling: ex, when asked if Sharia was developed by man or is the revealed word of a supernatural being, the majority think the latter: pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ Many many many people take these old books seriously and literally!
Again, Bill 21 is stupid! Wear a hijab, collider, or nothing at all, I don’t care. But let’s not pretend that the doctrine of Islam is all rainbows and unicorns and never question/criticize it in the name of “diversity”.
Michael Black 14:37 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
I’ve been stuck in hospital since the end of March, a big collapse and a rare disease. It’s a lousy situation, I stay alive through deliberate action.
The nurse last night had a hijab, so did a doctor last week. There are asian, black, Jewish, Muslim, and white nurses, doctors and orderlies here.
Some aren’t a good as others, but identify is not the factor. Some are better with people than others, I suspect I just don’t get along with all of them. Itt’ s an incredible invasive space, and if I worry about something, it’s that too many of the “menial” jobs are non-white.
I also started applying for a Manitoba Katie membership, if. nothing else I.believe in the birth of the Metis nation as resistance. It also means embracing native American culture and even religion to some extent. I’m not deluded, like you seem to imply many afe.
Two hundred years ago my great, great, great grandparents stepped out of their cultures to cross a greatdivide, one that still exists. They found things in common, maybe just a smile he writes about. They lived together for 44 years, until he died. There’s some speculation that he came from Scotland to make money, and return. If so, he was no settler, he stayed for Sarah and the children.
This is life. People are different but we get along. That’s all that matters.
Michael
Chris 17:04 on 2019-05-19 Permalink
Get well soon Michael !
Kate 08:13 on 2019-05-20 Permalink
Michael, I’m sorry to hear that you’re ill. We’ve never met, but is there anything you need there that I could bring you?
Tim S. 20:46 on 2019-05-20 Permalink
I hope you feel better soon, Michael. I very much enjoy your observations.