Montreal City Weblog

Kate 22:33 on 2021-01-24 Permalink Reply  

• GC 09:18 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  I might have missed it in the video, but he seemed to keep saying they need to pray, and nothing about them needing to pray together in groups larger than ten. I don’t see how the restrictions stop them from praying; just assembling.

• Kate 09:41 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  Also, we’re now allowed to have ten at a religious service! It’s too bad the QMI journalist didn’t know to point this out. “A minyan can still gather, so what’s the issue?” would have been the question to ask.

• Ephraim 10:08 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  Nothing stopped them from doing it outside in the street spread out. You don’t need a minyan, it’s just preferred. You don’t need a building. You don’t need to do the long form, you can do the short version. And you don’t need to put yours and the lives of others into danger, which is a violation of Jewish law.

  Under Jewish law, life is more precious than anything else. You can violate other laws for the sake of saving lives. Their argument, would fail at the Beit Din.

  Though, the government should have someone make a sign in Yiddish and post it on the doors of the synagogues, so they have NO excuses.

• Kate 10:57 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  To be fair, it’s a little chilly to pray outside just now. How long does the short version take, Ephraim?

• jeather 11:10 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  You sort of do need a minyan, but preserving life comes before anything else, certainly before praying with a minyan instead of alone.

  But I don’t think they’re allowed to do it outdoors, I thought we were not supposed to meet people outside, even at a distaince.

• Ephraim 12:55 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  30 minutes max, but you can separate it with a visit home, to warm up. You do one for afternoon prayers and then another for night prayers. But it’s certainly preferable to be doing it distanced outside at 3m-4m distance than in a building.

  But life preservation comes above all else. As I said, post signs in Yiddish on the doors of the synagogues with the rules and regulations and the threat of locking buildings entirely if they don’t follow the rules. Yes, they will use Godwin’s law all of this… but they do that on everything.

• Joey 17:17 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  The problem isn’t that there’s no way around praying in groups if the concept of “pikuach nefesh” (preserving life) is invoked… it’s that there is likely strong disagreement among community leaders that congregating to pray is creating significant risk to their lives. Given that there hasn’t been (to our knowledge) an outbreak among these communities and that daily prayer is unlikely to have stopped, I can see how there may be some skepticism about the need to observe public health rules. (Remember in the spring when all the papers had cute features about the simple beauty of observing Hasidic men “gather” on porches to pray? Yeah, they haven’t stopped praying even though the temperature has made outdoor minyans unpleasant…)

  Anyway, even though it’s no excuse to exempt them from public health rules, it seems to me that if there’s one community that is unlikely to cause the spread of COVID-19 beyond its own members, it’s Hasidic Jews. Despite living in some of the densest parts of the city, Montreal Hasidim keep to themselves big time. Aside from Cheskie’s, I can’t really think of an indoor space where you’re likely to find Hasidic and non-Hasidic Montrealers…

• Chris 17:35 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  Ephraim, that may be your interpretation of Jewish law, but theirs may be different. That’s one fun thing about religion, everyone has their own variation.

  Joey, maybe not in Montreal, but in NYC and Israel the Hasidic community accounts for a disproportional amount of covid.

  Most importantly though, that idea that they “have no choice” but to pray in that format should be pushed back against hard. They have every choice. For starters, they could not pray at all, it does nothing anyway, but I digress. Their “need” is no greater than my friend’s “need” to take a walk after his shift finishes at 20h00, or my other friend’s “need” to have school babysit his kid, or someone’s “need” to go shopping, or “need” to be in the office. Or whatever. They have to sacrifice and suffer along with the rest of us.

• jeather 17:45 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  There is absolutely no reasonable interpretation of Jewish law that puts anything above saving a life. I suppose it’s possible they do not agree that praying separately would be saving a life.

  No one here is saying that they should be exempted from these rules, or that this is a sensible thing for the government to allow.

  I admit I am sort of curious if any churches are breaking the rules too but not getting in the news for obvious reasons. I assume this means that mosques are not breaking the rules.

• Ephraim 18:25 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  We don’t really have numbers of how many cases exist within the Hasidic community, because we aren’t separating them out. We do know that in Israel, they have extremely high infection rates.

  There are only 4 reasons that you are allowed to violate Pikuach Nefesh. Murder, idolotry, icest and adultry.

  Yes, they can argue Pikuach Nefesh. So roll out the fines. Let them work on paying the tickets. Likely the most radical group, Satmar, will have to work the hardest to pay the fines. (And the one group that I have the least sympathy for.)

• Chris 20:55 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  >There is absolutely no reasonable interpretation of Jewish law that…

  Why limit your imagination to ‘reasonable’? One could also say: there’s no reasonable interpretation of Christianity that doesn’t say Jesus died on the cross. But JWs don’t believe that.

  The wiki has a whole section of exceptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh#Exceptions

  If you can’t even write the word “Yahweh” to save a life, then I’m sure they can think up some excuse.

• Kate 22:32 on 2021-01-25 Permalink

  Chris, you’re being rude. It isn’t necessary.

• Chris 00:04 on 2021-01-26 Permalink

  No rudeness was intended. Where do you perceive it? And to who?

• Chris 00:11 on 2021-01-26 Permalink

  Where I wrote “If *you* can’t even…” By “you”, I should have said “one”. I was not referring to any commentator here. Is that what you meant?

• GC 09:21 on 2021-01-26 Permalink

  Joey, even if they keep to themselves as a community, they can still spread it within that community. They also aren’t on a plague island somewhere. They still ride public transit and do interact with others. Also, when they are sick are they not a strain on the same health care system?

  I know you aren’t actually excusing them, but still…

• jeather 10:00 on 2021-01-26 Permalink

  Sorry I didn’t go into the details of “don’t pretend to convert to save your life” and “no incest to save a life”, which are truly relevant to whether one needs to pray in a group and how that compares to saving a life.

  I don’t know anything deep about Christianity and have no opinion about what specific things are reasonable interpretations of it.