Raised highway through another town
I was struck just now by this image of an elevated highway running through San Francisco, re an elevated REM being forced through downtown Montreal.
Elevated trains through town have been unpopular for a century. This morning, Rosemont councillor Christine Gosselin posted a cite from the book Angus – Du grand capital à l’économie sociale – 1904‑1992 by Gaétan Nadeau, about a railway project that was never even completed, but scarred several neighbourhoods: “Depuis 1910, les quartiers de Préfontaine, Maisonneuve et Mercier sont marqués par des piliers de ciment qui devaient recevoir une voie ferrée surélevée.”
I’ve spent time rummaging through old Gazette issues on the Google newspapers site. I should have bookmarked the many items I noticed in the early part of the 20th century and between the world wars in which community groups and local councillors tried to fight the imposition of trains elevated on embankments that created breaks between neighbourhoods that linger to this day.
Kevin 13:28 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
I noted that even the Caisse people promoting the REM East don’t think the support pillars should be as massive as the ones for the rest of the REM.
These pillars seem thicker than what supports highways.
CE 18:34 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
I would assume that if it were made of concrete, it would look more like the Sky Train in Vancouver wouldn’t it. Here’s a stretch of it that runs along and over a street.
DeWolf 19:06 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
Yes, it would more likely look like the SkyTrain, which is certainly not ideal, but it would hardly be a barrier between neighbourhoods. Here’s another Vancouver example in a more urban setting:
https://goo.gl/maps/rAAG4RtuXahoY3M96
And here’s a portion from downtown Vancouver where the SkyTrain runs very close to some apartment buildings. You can also compare it to the elevated roadway on the left, which is much bulkier and more overbearing:
https://goo.gl/maps/UfGRH4UU3khPAHRK9
David664 19:11 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
When it comes to development, 2/3 of the people who frequent this site could probably benefit from taking a pause before pronouncing on a given project to ask themselves: when was the last time I actually supported something? Like, peopl here are against virtually all change, growth, development, and progress in the physical space that we all (yes, “we all”) inhabit.
Kevin 19:58 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
The supports I spotted today near the Champlain bridge are like the bowl of a wine glass compared to the stems in those Skytrain photos.
Ephraim 20:16 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
SkyTrain runs along a corridor, not along a street for several kms. It crosses downtown… but isn’t this proposal to run along RL for a significant distance, no?
nau 20:57 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
DeWolf’s links show Skytrain cutting across streets but the REM East will go along René-Lévesque, so more like CE’s, which is however along a quieter street. Check out this section of Skytrain in Richmond and then transpose the Skytrain to the middle of the street on René-Lévesque.
ant6n 21:27 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
In downtown-proper, skytrain runs underground. I’d guess most of the taller buildings around the elevated sections of the skytrain were built after the train was put there. The first image DeWolf posted is 18km from downtown Vancouver, the second as at the edge of the inner downtown, where the skytrain emerges to go across that inner harbour area where the “science world” and the stadium is. I never found the skytrain very nice looking (or Vancouver, for that matter) – even though it’s not super massive, it does feel brutalist. It’s not as nice as the elevated subways built in Europe a hundred years ago on steel structures.
I think what bugs me most about the downtown section of the REM2 is how dinky it appears. Rene Levesque should host a high capacity trunk line going East and West, not be the terminus for some far-East one-off mini-metro. as an elevated line, its hard to imagine it could scale up to a high capacity trunk.
steph 23:59 on 2021-02-20 Permalink
Guy corner Argyle.. looks like an elevated train to me. All of Turcot, and all of the MET looks like gross elevated eyesore.
Jonathan 08:30 on 2021-02-21 Permalink
It seems like the province and CDPQ is trying to make the technology fit the context rather than let the context dictate the technology.
What I see most reasonable is the type of set up some Portland transit lines have. They run at a faster speed elevated or with a complete grade separated right of way outside the town, but once it reaches the city centre it runs along the middle in a dedicated right of way. The traffic lights dictated by the vehicles. You would run longer trains slightly less often to deal with a potential bunching issue.
Even the part under Lacordaire (?) Could run above ground potentially. That would significantly reduce the tunnelling costs.
You would need an actual person to attend to the vehicle for safety. But all of this just seems completely reasonable and fits in. Isn’t this also what is being done with the Eglinton cross town? Where there it functions as part metro part streetcar?
We need to flush this obsession with CDPQ and just really improve the transit planning process.
mare 11:17 on 2021-02-21 Permalink
The REM2 could also just run at the current street level. RL is located on the top of a ridge, and changing every other intersection into an underpass by changing the grade of the hill would not be super complicated. The street is also wide enough to make on-ramps. Build smaller tunnels at the closed off intersections for bike and foot traffic and it’s probably cheaper and less of a barrier and eyesore. (You probably have to built an anti-suïcide fence along the track; no idea how they solve that issue along the other tracks of the REM.)
DeWolf 13:57 on 2021-02-21 Permalink
Mare, that would mean turning RL into a wall with access points every few blocks. It would be way less permeable than an elevated structure that doesn’t block the ground level.
I know some of you think I’m some kind of elevated rail fanboy, so let me just say that I think the REM de l’Est is a terrible idea. The money should be spent on the Pink Line, or barring that, on a modern tram that can run in the median of RL before turning into grade-separated light rail in the east end. It would probably be cheaper and the capacity would be about the same.
But I also think there is a lot of catastrophizing going on about the prospect of an elevated railway. The Street View link that nau posted to the SkyTrain in Richmond is a perfect example. It’s not pretty, but it’s not particularly overbearing either, and it’s hardly a barrier.