Villeray–St-Michel–Park Ex mayor Giuliana Fumagalli has launched a new party, Quartiers Montréal, presenting candidates for the borough council and running again for mayor herself. As noted in the piece, Fumagalli was excluded from Projet Montréal in 2018 after allegations of harassment which echoed similar claims about Sue Montgomery in CDN-NDG.
Updates from August, 2021 Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
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Kate
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Kate
Patrick Lagacé explains why we shouldn’t say “Bon matin” because we already have “Bonjour” and the expression “Bon matin” is a calque of English. But, he admits, it’s sneaking into the language anyway.
He doesn’t mention it, but it doesn’t help that it’s also a brand name that you see around in grocery stores.
mare
A dictionary should document (and explain) what’s used, and not what *should be used*. Words are added to the Webster, the Oxford and Larousse dictionary every year. (And some old words are removed to keep the physical volume of the printed books manageable, but that’s not an issue for digital books so I’m not sure it’s still done.) Words are added originated from other languages, for new technologies, because conics and tv personalities use them or because people like it better that way.
You can use bonjour all day, and bonsoir also exist so why not have a word for good morning specifically? Like for welcoming someone to the breakfast table. Not only English, but German, Italian, Spanish and many other languages have a word for it too, so there’s obviously a need for it…
Kate
The OQLF is not there simply to record usage, but to recommend usage. It has lexicons but they aren’t dictionaries in the hands-off sense that modern linguists prefer.
Uatu
Time to complain to the oqlf about bon matin bread and how they are destroying the French language.
JP
What are the origins of the name “Quebec”? Maybe we should complain about that not being French enough as well.
DeWolf
Some weirdly defensive comments in this thread. Did any of you actually read Lagacé’s column? He’s no language warrior. “Bon matin” annoys him but he recognizes that language evolves in ways that you can’t necessarily control.
In Hong Kong and Singapore, there are a number of English words that are used “incorrectly” but in a very mainstream way, even by highly educated people. One of them is “outlook” to refer to someone or something’s visual appearance. “The brick will give the building an elegant outlook.” “That model has a nice outlook.” If I’m being honest, I find it a little grating, but I also find it quirky and a little endearing. Mixed feelings, in other words. Which is exactly how Lagacé feels about “bon matin.”
denpanosekai
I mostly hear “Bon Matin” from France French people.
Blork
Ye olde “prescriptivist vs. descriptivist” debate, in which it’s rarely heard that the middle ground might be the best way to go. Prescriptivists are deluding themselves if they think that complaining about new and borrowed usage can be pushed back by either complaining about it or ignoring it. And descriptivists are deluding themselves if they think that any new or borrowed usage is automatically legitimate the minute more than two people use it.
There is such a thing as a “mistake” in language. For example, it’s become fairly common for people to refer to green onions, aka “scallions,” as “shallots.” (You see this a lot in the US.) That’s a mistake and it comes from people who simply don’t know their onions, so they use the wrong word. The prescriptivist dictionary entry for “shallots” is to ignore the incorrect definition as if it is never used. The descriptivist dictionary entry for “shallots” is the same as its definition for scallions.
The result in both cases is confusion.
One of the primary goals for a dictionary (or any kind of lexicon) is to clarify and avoid confusion. So the Blork dictionary entry for “shallots” correctly describes shallots and then adds “frequently used incorrectly to refer to scallions.”
Now extrapolate that into all the other areas where language gets fuzzy. For example, the Blork dictionary entry for “outlook” would include the line “used in Hong Kong and Singapore to refer to the visual appearance of a person or thing.” (See DeWolf’s comment above.)
All of this is just my mini-rant that defaulting into descriptivism on every incorrect usage can and does lead to confusion, and it is completely legit to try to intercept bad usage before it becomes mainstream, and once it does become mainstream to grudgingly accept it.
Kate
DeWolf, I worked for a time with a young woman who used “outlook” in exactly the way you describe, but she was a local person, she wasn’t from HK nor had ever spent time there or, as far as I could tell, had ever been connected with anyone who had.
Blork, actually, “shallot” to mean green onions is a super typical Montreal anglo expression. Americans and Ontarians don’t use it. I think we got it here from “échalotes”.
Blork
Not so, Kate. “Shallots” for green onions/scallions is in fairly common (mis)use across the US and even the UK. Google “shallots vs. green onions” and you’ll many sites and blogs explaining the difference, which goes way beyond the Montreal context. I sometimes see YouTube recipes from Australia or the UK where the person says “two green onions, or ‘shallots’ as they call them in America,” etc.
Kate
Maybe it’s just that we call them “shalLOTS” which sounds more like “échalote”? Americans seem to call them SHALlots.
Wiktionary says “shallot” for “scallion” is “Louisiana, Australia”.
Blork
I have no doubt that the error comes from “échalotes.” Around here it’s usually pronounced “shaLOTs” like you say. Either case it’s just as wrong.
…reminds me of Ralph Lauren, the designer. So many people (particularly Montreal anglos) say “Ralph LauRON” as if the last name is “Laurent” like the river. But no, it’s LAURen, spelled and pronounced the same as Lauren Bacall. (Fun fact: he was born Ralph Lifshitz.)
MarcG
Louisiana is interesting because it also has French heritage. Australia on the other hand, who knows what’s going on down there.
Kate
MarcG, one thing Quebec anglos have in common with Australians is that an “entrée” on a menu is a starter. For some odd reason to do with how dinner courses were parted out in the rest of the anglo world, most English speakers think an “entrée” is a main dish.
Thomas
I agree with his point, and there are any number of other calques de l’anglais that one hears all the time and that also offend my sensibilities as someone who learned French in school as opposed to dans la rue or dans la vraie vie. But to get upset about bon matin or other anglicisms is to be at odds with life in Quebec itself.
While I take immense pride in my own mastery of the French language, I’ve given up judging or getting upset about general usage in Quebec. In fact, I’ve even started using anglicisms that I know are incorrect just to fit in and better integrate into Quebec society. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em…
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Kate
Despite the ongoing heatwave, many city pools remain closed because of a shortage of lifeguards.
In tangential news, Valérie Plante is promising that city day camps will stay open an extra week in future, so that kids will not have any interruption in supervised activities from summer into school. I’m surprised this is as big a deal as to be reported in multiple media, but then I’m not a parent.
Meezly
As a parent who’s kid has done day camps the past few summers, I didn’t realize this was a thing. I just never thought to register my kid as it’d be nice to have a few days to just chill before school starts. But not every household has that luxury.
But the one week gap made sense as day camp counsellors are usually CEGEP students, and they too, need some time off to relax and prep for their school year.
Was this why public pools used to close one week before school started as the life guards were primarily students? Didn’t explain why water parks had to close too.
The city talks about quality of life, but it seems like they’re spending money to extend day camps in order for parents to work their day jobs and thus, keep the economic wheels churning. Perhaps this is a good investment?
ant6n
The wading Pool in Parc Lafontaine at least has some water spraying going on, so the kids can get some water fun in the heat. (There’s actually a fair number of splash pads in the city as well)
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Kate
The Midway, which used to be a real dive on the lower Main but has apparently been spiffed up lately, tried out requiring the vaccine passport this week, and stayed open despite protesters gathering nearby.
Jeff
If I patronize any bar this winter, it will be one that requires a vaccination passport
Philip M
Very happy that bars will need to use the passport, especially if it leads the 18-29 age group to get vaccinated more.
I’m also very happy that I don’t drink, and have absolutely zero desire to go to a bar.
Ephraim
I can’t wait until I have to verify vaccination passports! I’m seriously excited.
Jack 10:39 on 2021-08-22 Permalink
This is a pattern and the curious thing is who it is directed at.
https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/columnists/martin-patriquin-another-side-to-the-tamara-thermitus-story
Jonathan 16:17 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
These candidates seem like very relevant and ideal members of the community! Despite what has happened to Fumagalli and the opposition from both Projet and Ensemble councillors on the borough council she has managed to accomplish a lot.