Bridge without track room “is a mistake”
The mayor of Ste‑Anne‑de‑Bellevue says that replacing the Île‑aux‑Tourtes Bridge without including a public transit lane, possibly for a future REM extension, is a serious mistake as we face climate change. We’ve discussed this before, not so long ago.
But is it? I was struck by responses below to a brief post about parking in Verdun. Verdun, a part of Montreal with three metro stations inside its borders and two just outside them, plus several bus routes, should be as accessible by public transit as anywhere. But there were objections right away to my suggestion that workers avoid the parking issue by taking the bus or metro:
1. Many of them are probably commuting FROM somewhere with inadequate transit.
2. Teachers often have to carry a lot of materials with them.
3. Workers often have to pick up children and groceries after work.
4. Not everywhere in Verdun is near a metro station.
All these points are valid. It makes me wonder what the limit is for getting off-island suburbanites, who won’t be nearly as well served as Verdun is even when you run the REM off the island, to shift to public transit, and is it worth the billions we’re spending on it?
Blork 20:16 on 2021-12-05 Permalink
Bear in mind that public transit for people who live in the city and public transit for people who live in the suburbs amounts to two different conversations.
In the first case, public transit isn’t just for getting to work and back. It’s for all the aspects of daily life; going for drinks with friends in a different neighborhood, going to specialty shops for groceries, going to the JT or Atwater market, taking your kids to hockey practice, going shopping on St-Denis, etc.
In the second case it’s 95% about getting to work and back, and the model is that you get on a train that takes you a long distance and at the end maybe the Metro or bus for that “last mile.” All that other “daily life” stuff happen almost entirely closer to home. As in, nobody who lives in Rigaud or Hudson is going to just pop over to the Jean-Talon Market on a Saturday because they prefer the bread from Joe La Croute. They do all that daily living stuff closer to home.
Anyone living off-island to the west would be insane to not use a train to go to work if they work downtown or anywhere near a Metro station. They will still own a car, but wouldn’t take it to work.
Verdun? Might be a bit different if your home and work aren’t right on a metro or express bus line. Imagine living in Verdun and working in VSL or Anjou. All those buses! Taking one bus is fine, but if you need to transfer once or (OMG) twice it can be a very long and hateful slog twice a day.
Uatu 21:44 on 2021-12-05 Permalink
The only way the REM is extended is if there’s a Delta City type condo development at the end of it because that’s the primary reason the thing exists. So unless that happens, then paying extra to future proof the bridge is a “waste of cash”, right?
mare 01:20 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
All the empty land in Vaudreuil is already owned by other real estate developers than Ivanhoe Cambridge (the real estate arm of the CDPQ), so why support the competition when there’s still space to build on the land they own next to the REM stations *on* the island.
The REM must become one of the very few transportation projects in the world that will make money. And if it doesn’t we all have to pay in the form of increased fares (for all tickets, not just the REM) and taxes. So adding unprofitable extensions (like Vaudrieul and to the airport) is not in our collective best interest. Building the REM never was about public transport, it’s about making money.
PO 10:46 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
For me, it matters because the bridge needs to last 60-100 years and it makes sense to at least make room for a transit. We can’t predict what the metropolitan area will look like in 2070, but one thing is for sure: once the bridge is built, that’s what we’ve got. Might as well maximize it and give it the potential.
Em 11:15 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
A lot of Verdun isn’t particularly well-served by transit, actually. And as someone already pointed out, north-south routes are pretty badly served compared to east-west.
My personal belief is that every single new road/bridge/infrastructure built in this city should automatically include either room for a bike lane (for smaller streets) or a lane that could be used for public transit (if a large road), whether or not it’s needed at the time of construction. Yes it will cost money, but it needs to be done and won’t cost more than trying to find room for those things after the fact.
Kate 12:58 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
isn’t particularly well-served by transit
Well, no. People still have to walk down long blocks to get to a main street for a bus. But that’s true everywhere. Unless you live on a main street, you’re not likely to have a bus going past your door.
Em, I’m curious about “north‑south routes are pretty badly served compared to east‑west”. It always astounds me, looking at the map of Verdun, that the streets I think of as east‑west (Bannantyne, Verdun Avenue, Wellington) are, on the map, actually almost due north‑south. Psychologically, in Montreal, any street that parallels the river is felt to be east‑west, but the map doesn’t lie!
PO: The bridge should at least have a dedicated rush-hour bus lane to shuttle people on and off the island (eventually to the REM, I suppose).
PO 14:23 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
Doesn’t a rush hour lane just reinforce the implementation of transit as a commuting tool rather than an effective way to get around? I’ll agree that no one in vaudreuil would hop on the REM to do their groceries on the island, but limiting the bridge having transit operate only in one direction feels half-assed, especially if there is a potential that the REM would end up in Vaudreuil (a concept for which there are pros and cons, of course).
nau 14:27 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
Yeah, the difference between geographic cardinal directions and colloquial cardinal directions is esp. hilarious in Verdun. Whether you think Verdun is well served by buses depends entirely on how far you think it’s reasonable to walk and how long it’s reasonable to have to wait, on which opinions vary. Personally, I’d never wait for a bus to get anywhere in Verdun, I’d rather bike or walk (even if it takes longer), but some people can’t and lots of people won’t. I had a coworker who lived around Rolland and Monteith and would drive to municipal parking on Willibrord and then walk to the metro to avoid the bus.None of the colloquial east/west buses run frequently outside of rush hour (in one direction) and 107 and 108 in the middle section hardly even run frequently during rush hour. As for colloquial north/south, the only bus is the 37 which at best gets to once every 13 minutes and only serves Woodland and Eglise/Galt with nothing in between or further out except for very small sections of the 112 and 108 routes).
nau 14:46 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
Since they all already own cars, essentially no one in Vaudreuil and beyond is going to take transit outside of rush hour. They only take it during rush hour because of the traffic jams, otherwise they’d drive then too. In fact, lots of them still are driving even then, that’s who’s in the traffic jams. As per Blork, they’re insane.So why would they take transit more generally? Certainly not because of climate degradation. Not to go full Ephraim, but the only real way to change their behaviour would be by making them pay more for the privilege of driving, which isn’t likely to happen. Still, to repost what I said in the other related thread below “as an intellectual exercise, it would be interesting if someone who studies personal transportation looked into how extensive a system of public transit plus a Communauto-like fleet of shared vehicles (functional, for various different purposes, but no status-related extra expense) could be provided to the suburbs for the same amount of money that is spent there by individuals on their personal motor vehicles (plus I suppose, whatever is currently being spent there on public transit).
denpanosekai 21:54 on 2021-12-06 Permalink
From my experience, buses are terrible in Verdun. The lines are all way too god damn long, and for example the 58 east gets fully loaded in Lasalle by the time it reaches Crawford Park. I’d rather walk across to Monk or even Angrignon metro. Or yeah, I just use my car a lot since the pandemic…
JaneyB 15:50 on 2021-12-07 Permalink
More on Verdun. Mostly it’s 10-15 minute walk to any of the 3 metros. That metro service is better than almost any other neighbourhood. Still, not easy with heavy things or kids. The bus frequency is not fantastic but there is the glorious iPhone app ‘Transit’ which let’s me know what my options are – essential for public transit users.