Man contesting ticket for walking on street
A man is contesting a ticket for walking on the street where the sidewalk was icy and unsafe. The man, who’s black, says he feels race was a factor, and indeed the police asking him where he was going seems like a giveaway. Why should anyone have to tell police where they’re going? And who hasn’t taken to the street occasionally this winter? Some days, the sidewalks on my block have been so bad that walking in the street and standing aside for cars has been safer. But I’m a white woman so police don’t see me.
Ephraim 08:46 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
Great, now we have “Walking while Black” as a police crime. We need one police commissioner with the damn balls to start doing something about errant cops. (I would say racist, but it isn’t simply race… they just can’t manage to uphold the law blindly.)
qatzelok 10:24 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
Anything out of the norm can be profiled. I’ve been profiled before because I was on a bicycle. Likewise, people get profiled because they’re walking in a dead neighborhood.
Anyone who’s not either driving a giant SUV, or walking a dog, can be thought of as “acting suspiciously” in our current culture of house-bound drivers with nowhere to go.
Blork 10:44 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
I heard this guy interviewed on CBC Radio this morning. The initial contact does have profiling overtones, but the resulting ticket not so much. The first problem was that the cops decided to ask him where he was going. In fact, this is just a typical “first contact” type of question from a cop who wants to check someone out, but the fact that he guy wasn’t really doing anything wrong makes it seem profile-ish.
But it went sideways when the guy replied “none of your business.” At that point he could have been the whitest guy on the face of the earth and he still would have gotten a ticket because a cop simply won’t back down from that, from anyone. In fact, the guy himself has admitted (repeatedly) that it was the wrong move, that it was a choice to escalate instead of de-escalate, and he said several times that he does not recommend responding like that.
All this to say, the original contact seems like profiling, but the resulting ticket does not. (That doesn’t make it right.)
BTW, if anyone comes at me with “don’t blame the victim” please STFU and re-read what I wrote. See if you can do it without prejudice.
Mark Côté 10:55 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
Maybe before someone replies to you, you could consider why they would. I’m trying to figure out the point of your comment… you admitted profiling was likely involved in this. We don’t know what would have happened if he had been completely polite while knowing he was likely stopped for being black. Maybe he would have gotten the ticket anyway. Maybe he’s gotten tickets before while saying everything he was supposed to, so maybe this time he didn’t care. All I can understand from your comment is “yeah he was profiled but he didn’t allow us to determine how far the profiling would have gone”. I’m not sure why that’s worth 4 paragraphs except to defend the current policing attitudes.
jeather 11:26 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
I don’t really see why I would want to tell a cop where I was going when I was outside not doing anything suspicious (and walking in the street when the sidewalks are icy is not at all suspicious). It’s clearly legal not to tell a cop that, because he wasn’t cited for it. And though I agree as a rule one should not escalate interactions, cops are the ones who are trained for things and who should not be so very sensitive about people being nice to them.
Blork 12:24 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
@Mark Côté, my comment is an analysis of the situation. Many people will say he got the ticket because he is black, but it seems to me (and this is just my analysis) that he got the ticket because he gave attitude to the cop, and it’s my opinion that ANYONE will get a ticket when they give attitude to a cop. I’m just trying to understand what actually happened instead of falling into the knee-jerk trap of sloughing off details and thereby jumping to conclusions. That does not exclude the possibility (or even probability) that the initial contact was profiling, and that should be called out. But the emphasis should be on why he was stopped, not on the fact he got a ticket.
@jeather, you’re right that you don’t technically *have* to tell the cop where you’re going. But the issue here is do you escalate or de-escalate? I suspect the cop doesn’t need a clear answer to his question; I think that was just the “first contact” line, which is designed to get you talking. It doesn’t really matter what you say. The cop wants to see if you’re drunk or stoned or elusive, etc. All you have to do is say “this way” or “over there.” You don’t have to actually say where you’re going. But if you give attitude, then the cops are going to escalate the situation, whether you’re black or white, male or female.
Ian 13:14 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
As in all things when dealing with cops it’s general best to act pleasant and a bit dumb. That’s not to say he wasn’t single out in the first place for walking while black, which is actually pretty likely.
jeather 13:24 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
I agree people should de-escalate. But cops, in particular, should not escalate a situation. I am not trained in how to deal with cops and their precious, easily-hurt feelings. (“I don’t need to tell you where I am going” is surely among the most mild things they hear.) Cops are trained in how to deal with civilians. You’re legally allowed to be walking while drunk or stoned, you’re legally allowed to be elusive about where you are going. Yes, you should be pleasant, but we expect far too much from civilians — especially black ones, especially black men — and far too little from cops.
Blork 14:18 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
I agree that cops shouldn’t escalate. But my comments (and my life decisions) are based on how things are, not how I feel they should be. If I go to leave the house one day in April and the temperature is an unseasonable -20C, am I going to think “it shouldn’t be this cold in April, so I’ll just wear this light jacket?” No, I’ll put on a parka because it’s cold whether it ought to be or not.
jeather 15:35 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
We can change the culture around what cops do, and part of that involves pushing back when they escalate situations needlessly instead of blaming anyone else.
Ephraim 17:08 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
My likely first response to “Where are you going?” would likely be “Excuse me?” or “Just trying to walk safely” and then if they pushed, a “Why?”
If it was me, I would call the station, speak to the captain and ask him what he thinks and if he really thinks this is a good use of time and resources of the police and see what he says, before I take it to the commission. Because I would take it to the commission.. and confession, it would be my second visit. I’ve also had a station captain in my home apologizing and begging me not to take an officer to the commission for discrimination against Anglos. There is nothing more productive that you can do to help reform the Montreal police than be known that you can and will go to the commission. (And there is a policeman who has a permanent record of that because of me.)
Kevin 17:19 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
I have smacked my hand on the hood of a police car and yelled at him to turn on his fucking headlights and to look where he is fucking going especially when he went through intersections (I was walking parallel to him and he was looking over his left shoulder as he advanced about 50 metres) Then yelled at him some more when he said he could give me a ticket for interfering with police duties.
I never got a ticket, but I am white and was yelling in French.
Blork 18:10 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
And that, dear readers, is white privilege. You would never get away with that as a person of colour.
Kate 21:09 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
White privilege is hard to notice because it’s the absence of something. It’s the absence, largely, of suspicion.
I am white, but I am not middle class. I wouldn’t claim to know how it feels to be “shopping while black” but I have been followed around stores by suspicious retail employees. I even told one retail worker “I seem to be making you nervous, so I’ll leave” once. The one time I went into Holt Renfrew, a saleswoman immediately moved from behind her counter and came over and walked me back out. Obviously, white trash like me would only be in there looking for something to steal.
So I have a faint taste of what it feels like to be told “you don’t belong here” and I can see why being asked “where are you going?” by a cop would have bite. The subtext is “you don’t belong here so I have a basis for asking you to explain yourself.” I have not forgotten the times I’ve been treated like this and it’s a drop in the bucket compared to how people of colour are treated every day.
Brett 22:46 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
It’s not white privilege. Just majority privilege. Try doing the same thing in Sevastopol or Port-au-Prince. Your skin colour won’t get you very far.
Kate 22:59 on 2019-02-20 Permalink
It’s white privilege here, in this context.
Tee Owe 03:34 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
Adding to Kate’s and other stories, I have experienced similar when I was younger and long-haired, back when this was ‘subversive’ (I’m white BTW). Actually had a cop treat me exactly like the guy here, was walking in the street (in Ottawa) because the sidewalk was icy, was told to get back on the sidewalk by a cop in a cruiser, I argued but no matter, but he didn’t make a deal out of it probably because he could see that if he got out of his car he’d be slipping and sliding too, so he just drove off. Privilege is relative.
Brett 04:04 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
Right, but it’s not specifically “white” privilege in this context. It’s just being a part of the majority that makes you non-threatening or just not worth the cops’ time. Using the term “white privilege” is to arbitrarily select a demographic trait that both parties share and applying undue importance to it while totally ignoring the more obvious explanation that it’s nothing more than two working class dudes having a small dispute. Sure, they share the same skin colour, but also the same language, accent, slang, gait, favourite TV shows and love of double-doubles from Tim Hortons.
It’s easy deconstruct the white privilege myth. Just dress up as an anglo Jew from Cote-St-Luc and hang out in Vanier in Quebec City for a couple days or whatever and see how far your skin colour gets you. You’ll quickly notice that it’s no match for just being a “local people”.
Kate 08:15 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
Brett, I don’t know why you’re dancing around this. Here, in Montreal, it’s white privilege, it’s nothing else. Yes, you can construct all kinds of stories in which someone is noticed as an outsider in a different setting, but there’s no escaping the statistically demonstrable proof that our police see black people through an automatic lens of heightened suspicion.
Bill Binns 12:44 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
“But I’m a white woman so police don’t see me.”
Hmm, maybe being a woman is the key here? This blue-eyed white skinned devil has several bullshit jaywalking tickets to his name. Either that or speaking English to Montreal cops is just as much a disadvantage as being black.
jeather 12:45 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
Do you really think that just because an anglo Jew might have more problems with cops in Quebec City than they would in CSL that means that racism doesn’t exist? Would a black working class person have no problems there? Come on. Racism isn’t the only problem in this world, and it shows up differently in different places, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Nor does the fact that some white people occasionally get tickets mean that they are equally oppressed.
Bill Binns 13:09 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
I think that at least *sometimes* visible minorities are mistreated by the cops or experience bad service in a restaurant or get traffic tickets or get turned down for jobs for reasons having nothing to do with racism. Many cops are assholes *to everyone*.
My wife and I are contesting a off leash dog ticket right now that was written by some random city employee that has nothing to do with dog enforcement. The dude jumped out of his car in traffic and followed my wife home on foot. He then looked up our address in some internal city database and called my wife at work to threaten her. All that’s missing from this story to elevate it to newspaper worthy is “and also I’m [INSERT PROTECTED CLASS HERE]”.
Kevin 13:19 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
While I was particularly ornery the day I hurled abuse at a cop I would never had done so in English, because then I’d have wound up with a ticket or worse.
Brett is hung up on a quirk of language and so is missing the point. People who say they’re not racist because Islam isn’t a race use the same misguided tactic.
We, collectively, are lazy about our language and use terms like white privilege and racism when we should just use the catchall term prejudice.
But we don’t do that, just like we talk about hoverboards and drones even though they don’t hover and they’re not automated…
Mark Côté 13:57 on 2019-02-21 Permalink
Every time I hear “can we just talk about prejudice” I think “does that person *honestly* think that whites and people of colour have more-or-less the same lived experience?”.
Kevin 08:45 on 2019-02-22 Permalink
@Mark Coté
Save it for the enemy.