Taylor C. Noakes puts up his dukes on CultMTL against a recent Gazette op‑ed advising young anglos to leave Quebec.
I agree with Noakes, for the most part, although I think he’s mistaken when he writes “A century ago, there was no ‘anglo’ community — there was English-speaking Quebec, and it was composed almost exclusively of people from the British Isles.” I’ve done enough genealogy research locally – for myself and others – to know that by 1924 there were a lot of people living here, and more or less integrated into the anglo side, who were not from the British Isles. Maybe if you limit yourself to Westmount or the Golden Square Mile you’ll only see English names on the 1921 or 1931 census, but elsewhere in town you’ll see, mixed in with French, anglo and Celtic surnames, Polish, Ukrainian, Italian, Jewish, Greek, Syrian, Chinese and many other nationalities living side by side.
(It’s when you hear stories about such people bringing their kids to enrol at the local French grade school and being turned away that you begin to understand why so many people from immigrant families ended up on the anglo side.)
There’s a downside to Noakes’s argument though. It’s YOLO. You have one life, and if you have certain kinds of ambition for yourself or your kids, you have to ask yourself if you’d do better somewhere else. My experience was that all my friends from high school and afterwards left Quebec and many have thrived in places where English is dominant and they don’t have to think about things like eligibility certificates to have their kids educated in their mother tongue. Of the people I still hear about, some have fetched up in the U.S., the UK, other parts of Canada, and almost all have done better in life, by most metrics, than I have. Years ago some did indicate they thought I was nuts to stay. But here I agree with Noakes: “In the same way you can’t simply tell French-speaking Québécois they should move to France if they don’t like it here, you can’t tell anglos to move to Ontario for the same reason.”
Ian 16:25 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
Hey, I moved here from Ontario and stayed. Best decision I ever made, YOLO.
One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of people born and raised here, especially anglos, think Montreal is a boring, provincial backwater and can’t wait to move to Toronto or wherever.
Let me just say this: Montreal has cachet. There is no cachet in living in Toronto.
walkerp 16:33 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
Interestingly, there is a solid contigent of anglo parents who moved to Quebec from the ROC (and sometimes the States) who have put their kids in the french school system and are keeping them there.
Anglophones may or may not “do better” in Toronto, but they don’t seem to be very happy about it.
Ian 17:44 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
Parents from the States have to, but yeah we switched my youngest to the local French school and she was not the only historic anglo there by any stretch. She’s in English high school now so that if the rules change again she can still choose what cegep she wants to go to regardless of language, since they don’t all have the same programs.
Kevin 18:07 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
My sibling who lives in an Ottawa suburb, in a property worth 2/3 of mine, pays more in municipal taxes than I do for my place in NDG.
YMMV.
Kate 18:33 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
Hey, I’m not bashing Quebec or saying everything’s lovely elsewhere. Only that for some kinds of career the options may be limited if you’re an anglo. If you’re into traditional media, for example, we know Montreal’s got limited options for anglos. The cultural world here proceeds in French – I’m not saying it shouldn’t – but how many people of anglo origin are announcing on Radio‑Canada or writing in Le Devoir, no matter how solid their education in French? Whereas, being in London or New York or, God knows, Toronto, there would be a wider world to dip into.
Among friends who left are a couple of professors, a senior fellow at Intel, a London literary agent and a prominent arts administrator. I wouldn’t want their jobs but they’re certainly all doing OK by most assessments. (On the other hand, three old friends who moved to Toronto are now dead, so it’s not all wine and roses…)
Joey 19:48 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
I grew up in the 80s and 90s – it was common for anglos to raise their kids in as much of an English (or, depending on ethnicity, diverse but usually non-French) world as possible. Bill 101 kids could go to school in English with other anglos so we didn’t really know many non-anglos well, outside of impromptu meetings (the park skating rink was a big equalizer). As a result, many of my cohort left Quebec as soon as they could – their French was mediocre, their social world was small, and opportunities to live and prosper in their native language were a few hours’ drive west.
Most of the folks I know in my age group who are still in Montreal and have kids of their own are raising them much more bilingually and biculturally. French school (or French immersion), French day camps, French books, etc.
All this to say the Gazette op-ed could not be more out of touch.
Taylor 20:47 on 2024-08-25 Permalink
Thanks for sharing Kate
To your first point, I should have been more specific. I don’t think the idea of an ‘Anglo Quebecois’ community existed 100 years ago, and certainly not anything like what the term means today. There was an ‘English community’ but it was rather exclusive (to a fault) – I don’t think those people back then would have seen themselves as part of the same community as Eastern European Jews, Caribbean Blacks (etc). I think our modern concept of Anglo is inherently far more cosmopolitan – to our latter day credit as a community.
As to the second point, I understand completely. I think it’s the blanket advocacy of ‘everyone should leave’ that drvies me nuts.
When I was in a suburban PSBGM elementary school, back in the mid-90s, our graduation trip was to Toronto. I remember in the 7th grade receiving a book about Toronto as a prize. I remember thinking it was odd we didn’t take more trips into Montreal, and that we had never visited Quebec City. I felt they were preparing us to move.
I’m not telling individuals they shouldn’t seriously consider their options. Obviously, follow your heart, follow the money, explore the world. But to just throw your hands up and tell everyone to leave? I can’t abide by that.
Ironically, culture is one place where the Anglo community historically always punched above its weight, and this has only really changed in recent years. I suspect the culprit is more corporations squeezing the life out of anything even remotely successful, and the algortihm’s preponderance to move the worst of ourselves to the top of the pile.
The best thing the Anglo community could do for itself is break up the media monopolies, or at least buy out our shares and run everything independently. Competition was very good for business for a very long time.
Kate 07:36 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
Taylor, there didn’t have to be an “anglo community” here 100 years ago because their rights as speakers of a specific language were not being challenged.
jeather 11:18 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
There was an anglo community, and then the other non-Cathoilc immigrants that they reluctantly let go to their schools, who eventually became anglophones. I’ve been to many a francophone event (often a wedding) where I’m the only anglo and/or Jew and they are shocked that (a) my family has been here longer than some of their families and (b) the reason we aren’t francophones is that way back when Jews first came, we weren’t allowed in the Catholic schools, and by the time that was changed it was too late.
DeWolf 11:29 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
Ian mentioned local anglo kids who think Montreal is a backwater and can’t wait to leave for the ROC – I’ve definitely met those, but interestingly they are almost all from the West Island. Anglo kids who grew up in the city, especially in areas like Mile End, seem to really like Montreal, and if they leave it’s to go somewhere like New York or London or Paris, not Toronto. Different values I guess.
(There’s also a subset of anglo Italians I’ve met who grew up in St-Leo, love to bash Montreal, but would only move somewhere like Florida if they left.)
Kate 13:52 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
On some of the Montreal Facebook groups – ones I don’t look at much any more – there are people writing in English, often with Italian or Greek surnames. They hate the mayor and they insist the city is in terminal decline. The only time they have anything positive to say is when a photo from the 1960s or 1970s is posted, then they talk about how much better everything used to be.
Fortunately these people are not in the majority. I always get a sense they’re holed up in a distant suburb, maybe even in a different place, and haven’t been to downtown Montreal in this millennium.
walkerp 14:01 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
Kate, this is parter of a much larger propaganda campaign by the right to vilify cities. It does align with cranky old 2nd (and sometimes 1st) gen immigrant children who grew up in Montreal, but I wouldn’t be surprised if many of them are fake and troll accounts.
Kate 16:06 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
I’ve occasionally looked at the accounts of such people. It surprised me how many of them seem to have actual lives of some sort, as much as you can tell on social media, rather than being accounts with no history, simply created to troll.
bob 16:31 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
Just because someone is a human with a life of some sort does not necessarily mean they are not effectively a bot.
CE 21:33 on 2024-08-26 Permalink
We all exist downstream of misinformation and propaganda but some people live very close to its source.