A Hasidic man quoted in this QMI piece pleads for an exception to the rule against gathering because his people “have no choice” but to pray in that format.
Updates from January, 2021 Toggle Comment Threads | Keyboard Shortcuts
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Kate
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Kate
One man has waited 13 years to get a social housing apartment.
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Kate
CTV looks into how Accueil Bonneau has laid off some front-line workers and hired security guards instead. The item references a piece in Metro earlier this week about the change of approach; there’s another Metro piece this weekend about how some find this shift unsettling.
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Kate
Rent hikes ordained for this year will be lower than in 2020 with only 0.8% for flats rented without heat and with no significant work done over the past year.
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Kate
The Washington Post looks at efforts to vaccinate the homeless around the world, with Montreal in the headline and the story. I’m quite surprised to find out Vatican City has homeless people.
DeWolf
It sounds like the Vatican runs shelters so I imagine it’s all homeless people from the surrounding neighbourhoods in Rome.
Michael Black
When I was there in 1965, at age 5 it was a concept hard to grasp, a separate country, but it’s a city. Not even that, it’s not even away from Rome.
Blork
It’s very weird. Imagine if the McGill campus in Montreal was its own city-state. Sort of like that.
Kate
McGill already is. I didn’t post about this story last week about a McGill student accused of sexual assault. “McGill sent an email to students in December explaining that the university was looking into the case.” There’s more in there about the university undertaking an investigation, yadda yadda. There’s no mention of police or legal charges in the whole piece.
It was also reported straight up on CBC radio and nobody questioned why, if there were credible allegations of sexual assault – multiple instances, if the plural in that piece is to be believed – nobody CALLED THE COPS. You don’t waffle around putting people off with academic mumble about internal investigations. You CALL THE COPS.
Unless you’re a city state like McGill.
david1000
Does this add up or sound just strange?
“”The entirety of this process is covered by confidentiality regulations imposed on us by law, and as such, details or updates concerning particular cases cannot be provided to anyone outside those immediately involved,” Lee said.”
“The investigation was launched Dec.16, after an online petition signed by more than 50,000 people alleged that a first-year student had sexually assaulted several young women on campus last fall.”
“Seeing his name pop up on that Zoom list was a blow,” said another student, who was present in a Zoom class with the student under investigation. “I was fearful. I was extremely uncomfortable,” she continued.
CBC hasn’t spoken to any of the women who filed formal complaints about the alleged misconduct.
david1000
Does anyone seriously believe that a serial sexual assault artist at McGill – who had 50,000 people sign a petition to get him booted out – wouldn’t be referred to the cops, and that instead the school would cover up for that?
I’m not privy to what’s going on, but let’s wait to see what the facts are before the internet gossip crucifies someone, and the maybe the best institution in our city and province.
Michael Black
The CBC article seems vague so maybe it’s groping or inappropriate words. People have seen it’s not just them, but happened to others, so they want the university to do something about him. One time, it might not seem bad enough to call the police, but as one of a few or many like incidences, it does make them more uncomfortable.
I’m not trying to dismiss this, just find a reason, from the article, why it’s not a police matter.
A glance at thestudent newspapers doesn’t show anything, but I didn’t do searches.
Alison Cummins
It’s very difficult to be the only person to bring charges of sexual assault. Ideally there is at least one other survivor who can support your claim.
It’s *possible* that the university asks survivors whether they want to go to the police (no! please no! just get rid of him so I don’t have to drop out of university!) and keeps a file. When there are enough survivors in the file, they are contacted and asked again whether they want to go to the police.
Possible. Not particularly likely though. It doesn’t sound like it. But a policy like that would have the effect of increasing the number of police reports and successful prosecutions.
Alison Cummins
RE the likelihood that these assaults are not considered to be police matters because they are just inappropriate langage, creepy behaviour or casual groping—highly unlikely. I know today is different, but I can’t imagine multiple young women going to the dean to say that so-and-so called me a slut, or grabbed my ass at a party without being invited to do so. I just can’t imagine it. I can only imagine that what is being reported is coercive penetration.
In separate studies, thousands of young US men — college students and navy recruits — were asked whether they had done any of the following:
A. Used substances to get sex from an acquaintance.
B. Used violence to get sex from an acquaintance.
C. Used substances to get sex from a stranger.
D. Used violence to get sex from a stranger.4% of the college students and 8% of the naval recruits reported B or C. Practically speaking, only D is prosecutable. (We can hope that the men who would otherwise have reported D were not part of the study because they were in jail.)
While most men reported only having done this once, maybe twice, some reported having done it four or more times. Remember, these are young men. They have busy lives ahead of them.
So, maybe 6% of US men are rapists; maybe 0.5% are serial rapists.
Let’s assume that nice Canadian McGill University students are only half as likely to be rapists than American college students are: that’s 2%. Maybe 0.1% serial rapists?
The McGill student body is 40k, majority women. We’ll say 16k men. If 0.1% of those men are serial rapists, that’s 16. Using statistics conservatively, it’s plausible that 16 individual McGill students have extorted sex four or more times each, whether using violence against an acquaintance or substances against a stranger.
By this reckoning it’s far more plausible that if it’s not a police matter, it’s because McGill doesn’t want to report rapes, than that lots of women are complaining to the dean that a fellow student called them a slut.
Kate
david∞ – McGlll doesn’t like scandal. In the past, they’ve tried to cover up or at least minimize allegations of sexual aggressions, particularly by their athletes, or by the sons of important families. Here’s a piece from 2013 in the McGill Daily, for example.
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Kate
A Hasidic council is asking community members to obey public health rules, but as I understand it, there are different groups with different rabbis, not unified under a single authority.
Note that Quebec’s rule of 10 people allows for a minyan, but no more. I wonder how deliberate that was.
Police have stepped up patrols in Outremont and the Plateau after a number of incidents, presumably focusing on the Mile End side of that borough if it’s mostly a question of watching for Hasidic gatherings. Someone at the SPVM has to have a calendar of Jewish holy days on their laptop now. Purim is going to be a challenge but it’s still a month away.
Ephraim
Belz, Satmar, Vizhnitz and Bobov are the main groups in Montreal, I think. Satmar is the sect discussed in the book Unorthodox and are very anti-Israel. Bobov, if I remember correctly are sort of apolitical and rely on the knowledge of the Rebbe and less on miracles, and they are allowed to go into professions if they please. I’m really not sure of all of this… since they are cults/sects they don’t let that many people in to study them in depth.
Anyone know if we have Litvish groups in Montreal? (Litvish are ultra-orthodox groups who are not members of the Hasidic dynasty from the Baal Shemtov.)
Kate
Ephraim, which ones wear those 18th-century white half-hose?
Chris
Not Montreal specific, but there have been some interesting documentaries/movies lately with a peek into these cults, ex: “Unorthodox” and “One of Us”.
Ephraim
Kate – Do they wear white or black on the sabbath? White or black on holy days? Are their pants long or tucked in? Belz is generally white socks but black on the sabbath.
It’s all confusing to me. My particular take on it, if you see them with an anti-Israel sign… Satmar.
See http://www.fancymag.com/hasidic.html for some comments on their dress.Kate
Ephraim, I don’t remember when I noticed them, I just recall seeing men in absolutely 18th‑century garb around St‑Viateur at various times. The trousers end just below the knee, and the lower leg is in thick white hose, not in a pant leg.
Chris
Ephraim, interesting link, thanks for sharing. There’s several interesting examples of man-made rule changing in there:
“At one time it was acceptable for the Satmar teens and women to wear a lighter nylon, but the Rebbe thought it was too provocative. He prescribed stricter guidelines and heavier seamed stockings have been worn since.”
and
“long skirts became popular in secular culture and the Rebbe prescribed that the length of skirts for his followers had to be shorter.”
So changing the rules is possible. 🙂
You may also find this interesting, survey data about those who have gone OTD: http://nishmaresearch.com/assets/pdf/Report_Survey_of_Those_Who_Left_Orthodoxy_Nishma_Research_June_2016.pdf
GC 09:18 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
I might have missed it in the video, but he seemed to keep saying they need to pray, and nothing about them needing to pray together in groups larger than ten. I don’t see how the restrictions stop them from praying; just assembling.
Kate 09:41 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
Also, we’re now allowed to have ten at a religious service! It’s too bad the QMI journalist didn’t know to point this out. “A minyan can still gather, so what’s the issue?” would have been the question to ask.
Ephraim 10:08 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
Nothing stopped them from doing it outside in the street spread out. You don’t need a minyan, it’s just preferred. You don’t need a building. You don’t need to do the long form, you can do the short version. And you don’t need to put yours and the lives of others into danger, which is a violation of Jewish law.
Under Jewish law, life is more precious than anything else. You can violate other laws for the sake of saving lives. Their argument, would fail at the Beit Din.
Though, the government should have someone make a sign in Yiddish and post it on the doors of the synagogues, so they have NO excuses.
Kate 10:57 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
To be fair, it’s a little chilly to pray outside just now. How long does the short version take, Ephraim?
jeather 11:10 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
You sort of do need a minyan, but preserving life comes before anything else, certainly before praying with a minyan instead of alone.
But I don’t think they’re allowed to do it outdoors, I thought we were not supposed to meet people outside, even at a distaince.
Ephraim 12:55 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
30 minutes max, but you can separate it with a visit home, to warm up. You do one for afternoon prayers and then another for night prayers. But it’s certainly preferable to be doing it distanced outside at 3m-4m distance than in a building.
But life preservation comes above all else. As I said, post signs in Yiddish on the doors of the synagogues with the rules and regulations and the threat of locking buildings entirely if they don’t follow the rules. Yes, they will use Godwin’s law all of this… but they do that on everything.
Joey 17:17 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
The problem isn’t that there’s no way around praying in groups if the concept of “pikuach nefesh” (preserving life) is invoked… it’s that there is likely strong disagreement among community leaders that congregating to pray is creating significant risk to their lives. Given that there hasn’t been (to our knowledge) an outbreak among these communities and that daily prayer is unlikely to have stopped, I can see how there may be some skepticism about the need to observe public health rules. (Remember in the spring when all the papers had cute features about the simple beauty of observing Hasidic men “gather” on porches to pray? Yeah, they haven’t stopped praying even though the temperature has made outdoor minyans unpleasant…)
Anyway, even though it’s no excuse to exempt them from public health rules, it seems to me that if there’s one community that is unlikely to cause the spread of COVID-19 beyond its own members, it’s Hasidic Jews. Despite living in some of the densest parts of the city, Montreal Hasidim keep to themselves big time. Aside from Cheskie’s, I can’t really think of an indoor space where you’re likely to find Hasidic and non-Hasidic Montrealers…
Chris 17:35 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
Ephraim, that may be your interpretation of Jewish law, but theirs may be different. That’s one fun thing about religion, everyone has their own variation.
Joey, maybe not in Montreal, but in NYC and Israel the Hasidic community accounts for a disproportional amount of covid.
Most importantly though, that idea that they “have no choice” but to pray in that format should be pushed back against hard. They have every choice. For starters, they could not pray at all, it does nothing anyway, but I digress. Their “need” is no greater than my friend’s “need” to take a walk after his shift finishes at 20h00, or my other friend’s “need” to have school babysit his kid, or someone’s “need” to go shopping, or “need” to be in the office. Or whatever. They have to sacrifice and suffer along with the rest of us.
jeather 17:45 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
There is absolutely no reasonable interpretation of Jewish law that puts anything above saving a life. I suppose it’s possible they do not agree that praying separately would be saving a life.
No one here is saying that they should be exempted from these rules, or that this is a sensible thing for the government to allow.
I admit I am sort of curious if any churches are breaking the rules too but not getting in the news for obvious reasons. I assume this means that mosques are not breaking the rules.
Ephraim 18:25 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
We don’t really have numbers of how many cases exist within the Hasidic community, because we aren’t separating them out. We do know that in Israel, they have extremely high infection rates.
There are only 4 reasons that you are allowed to violate Pikuach Nefesh. Murder, idolotry, icest and adultry.
Yes, they can argue Pikuach Nefesh. So roll out the fines. Let them work on paying the tickets. Likely the most radical group, Satmar, will have to work the hardest to pay the fines. (And the one group that I have the least sympathy for.)
Chris 20:55 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
>There is absolutely no reasonable interpretation of Jewish law that…
Why limit your imagination to ‘reasonable’? One could also say: there’s no reasonable interpretation of Christianity that doesn’t say Jesus died on the cross. But JWs don’t believe that.
The wiki has a whole section of exceptions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh#Exceptions
If you can’t even write the word “Yahweh” to save a life, then I’m sure they can think up some excuse.
Kate 22:32 on 2021-01-25 Permalink
Chris, you’re being rude. It isn’t necessary.
Chris 00:04 on 2021-01-26 Permalink
No rudeness was intended. Where do you perceive it? And to who?
Chris 00:11 on 2021-01-26 Permalink
Where I wrote “If *you* can’t even…” By “you”, I should have said “one”. I was not referring to any commentator here. Is that what you meant?
GC 09:21 on 2021-01-26 Permalink
Joey, even if they keep to themselves as a community, they can still spread it within that community. They also aren’t on a plague island somewhere. They still ride public transit and do interact with others. Also, when they are sick are they not a strain on the same health care system?
I know you aren’t actually excusing them, but still…
jeather 10:00 on 2021-01-26 Permalink
Sorry I didn’t go into the details of “don’t pretend to convert to save your life” and “no incest to save a life”, which are truly relevant to whether one needs to pray in a group and how that compares to saving a life.
I don’t know anything deep about Christianity and have no opinion about what specific things are reasonable interpretations of it.