Montreal City Weblog

Kate 11:21 on 2022-11-23 Permalink Reply  

• DeWolf 19:03 on 2022-11-23 Permalink

  This is great. When I was living in Hong Kong, the government began offering a flat HK$2 (about 30 cents) fare for all buses and trains. There’s always a lot of old timers hanging out in parks and in the streets, but suddenly you started seeing a lot more old people leaving their neighbourhoods and going to far-flung places just for the fun of it.

• Nicholas 21:34 on 2022-11-23 Permalink

  It’ll be interesting to see the details. Will you need an age d’or OPUS (meaning most visitors and very occasional users will need to pay), or RAMQ (out of province will pay) or any random ID? Is it just valid for city residents (budget from city), or agglo residents? Is it valid only on STM, or on Exo and REM? Only within city limits or all of Zone A, or the whole network of the STM including metro off-island? Laval lets Laval residents get an OPUS with free service on STL buses only (not STM or Exo), regardless of which zones the STL passes through, and Laval seniors need to buy a second OPUS to load reduced fare tickets outside of the STL. Lots of ways this could go.

• Blork 21:43 on 2022-11-23 Permalink

  Here’s how it will work.

  Seniors 65+ will have to go in person Berri/UQAM where they will need to purchase a special OPUS card. They will need to pay the regular rates for a monthly pass or individual tickets. Once a month they will need to log into the STM website, where they must be registered, and download the official trip log that was generated by the system. However, the site will almost always be down, but no worries, there’s a backup plan: they can go to an administrative office in Rivière-des-Prairies where they can obtain a printed copy. They must then submit their trip log to their local borough administrative office BEFORE the 5th of the next month. At the end of the year, they must submit a request to City Hall, along with supporting documents from the STM and their borough office. This will result in a tax credit against their property tax for the coming year.

  Renters will instead receive a report from City Hall that must be submitted to the Regie des Logements, who will authorize their landlord to rebate the amount from the tenant’s rent, after which the landlord can submit a request to City Hall for an equivalent tax credit.

  See? Free transit!

• Tim 22:24 on 2022-11-23 Permalink

  Another gift for the least poor demographic in our society. They could have easily made it means based for seniors that need it. Disgusting.

• Blork 22:33 on 2022-11-23 Permalink

  Tim, that’s a shitty way to look at it. It’s only a gift to those who take it. The wealthy seniors will not use it so for them it’s moot and costs no one anything. But there are loads of seniors on fixed incomes, and with no prospects for gaining any additional wealth (too old to get a new job, never going to inherit anything, etc.). This is for them.

  It’s completely wrong to assume that all seniors or even most seniors are wealthy just because they’re wealthy as a demographic.

• Tim 08:49 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  Blork, I do not assume that all seniors are wealthy. I even suggested that the program should be means based, making it free for those that are truly in need.

  I don’t agree that a wealthy senior would not take advantage of this either. I believe that they will and that they should be paying something (it was already a reduced fare)

• Blork 10:37 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  I suspect the number of wealthy seniors you’ll see riding free public transit will be negligible, and given that the only cost is opportunity cost, then I don’t see why anyone would find this “disgusting.” It’s not like they’re handing out bundles of cash or scarce resources that could be used elsewhere.

• Tim 14:40 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  Easily identifiable risks for this policy include the fact that this could increase the load on the system and could change usage patterns (maybe more seniors will take transit during rush hour if it’s free).

  We have an aging society where the proportion above 65 continues to increase. This suggests a shrinking base of paying users for the foreseeable future. What impact will this have in 5, 10 or 20 years?

  Not to mention that once this change is made next year, it will become intractable and pretty much impossible to change from a political point of view. When Harper tried to raise the target CPP age from 65 to 67 with a 20 year horizon it was a political landmine.

  I do hope that there is some type of special OPUS card so at least management will be able to measure the impact directly. Maybe a couple of years from now we can revisit the topic with some real data.

  Maybe “disgusting” was harsh, but I just don’t like the arbitrary nature of this change. What is so special about 65? Why didn’t they choose 60 or 70? Why not have a policy based entirely on need that does not bring age into the equation? If you are poor, no matter what your age, transit is free for you.

• Blork 15:11 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  Tim, you’re tilting at windmills. There is virtually no risk of an increased load on the system, especially at commuting times. Most people over 65 are retired, so they don’t have a commute. And if they have any sense at all, they’d do their chores or social visits or whatever in off-hours. The odds of this changing transit usage patterns in any significant way are extremely low.

  What’s so special about 65? It’s when most people retire. It’s the upper limit of the age at which various “senior discounts” set in. It’s generally considered the point at which we transition from middle age to old age.

  The idea of giving discounts and other special treatment to seniors is well established in our society and generally well regarded. It’s a thing we do as a sign of respect for our elders, many of whom are on a fixed income and have declining health and mobility, and all sorts of other issues to worry about.

  Making it a blanket age-based “gift” is far easier and more cost effective than implementing some Byzantine system of needs checking that would cost actual money and effort (see my first comment in this thread). Again, it’s not like they’re handing out something tangible, where the wealthy 65-year-old gets a bag of money and the poor 64-year-old gets nothing. All this does is offer free entry into an existing service for people who probably won’t even use it very often.

  When I think of the seniors I know, I can tell you this: very few of the ones “with money” will use the free transit with any regularity, and especially not on commuting times. They’ll continue to use their own cars, or taxis, or whatever. If on occasion they take the Metro to some event or other, big deal! I’ll be the first to hold the door for them.

  I disagree that this is “arbitrary.” Sure, it would be nice if transit and other things were priced according to people’s ability to pay, but this is the real world. Such a thing will never happen, and if it ever did it would be rife with confusion and corruption and would be expensive and wasteful to run. Free transit starting at 65 — a non-arbitrary age (see above) — makes perfect sense, costs nothing, helps some people, and is a visible sign of respect for elders.

• Tim 17:16 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  Looking forward to analyzing the data with you in a couple of years Blork. 🙂

  We’ll see if it’s only a $40 million dollar hit (number taken from https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/public-transit-to-be-free-for-seniors-on-island-of-montreal-as-of-july-source-says) or otherwise.

• Blork 20:10 on 2022-11-24 Permalink

  It’s a date!