Legault announces tax for the non-vaxxed
François Legault announced Tuesday that a new tax would be levied on the unvaccinated, a story that immediately took up all the oxygen and pushed the Horacio Arruda story off the stage. There are debates whether it’s ethical, whether it’s even legal under the Canadian bill of rights (although Legault could notwithstanding-clause his way around that, I don’t doubt), whether it’s a step in going back to a user-pay system, whether we should not educate instead of punishing. Whatever the theory, there’s been a rush on first doses, so even if it wasn’t seriously intended, his threat has had an effect.
Update, more or less: On CBC radio at noon they kept saying there was no precedent for enforcing vaccinations. But when I was small, it absolutely was mandatory to present a smallpox vax certificate to enroll at school. I know I’m not imagining this, because my mother was very clear about it when we went to the doctor’s office, telling me firmly why we had to go, and I remember seeing the piece of paper, although I don’t know where it is now. Of course by that point the likelihood of a little Montreal kid catching smallpox was virtually nil, but it was still required. Government website says “Canadians born in 1972 or later have not been routinely immunized against smallpox” which is considered to have been eradicated since 1977, and I suppose no vaccination has been strictly mandatory since then.
And there were protests against smallpox vaccinations back in the day, too. The only way to make sure you wiped the disease out was to make vaccination mandatory. So they did.
walkerp 10:36 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
I hadn’t heard about the rush on first doses. That’s a good sign.
Joey 10:40 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Not discounting the perspective of community orgs that think the solution to vaccine heistancy is more money for community orgs, but have we not reached a point where the carrots and the education campaigns have hit their ceilings? I have no idea whether the unvaxx tax will make a difference or not, but I’m not sure there are any tools left in the shed at this point…
Ephraim 10:43 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Still think they should make a levy for healthcare for the pandemic and then rebate it to those who are vaccinated. It might amount to the same thing, but the cost is equal to everyone and it’s simply a rebate to those who are helping lower the costs and voluntary. You just fill in your medicare number on your form and give them permission to see your vaccination record. And it should apply to having ALL your needed vaccinations, because the unvaccinated cost the system up to 100X what a fully vaccinated person costs in the system… not just COVID, but MMR. Most of us are not up to date on Tetanus either. And it wouldn’t hurt to start to vaccinate everyone for Hep-A and B. And start rolling out the vaccination for shingles for people over 55. Vaccinations are likely the best protection our healthcare system has ever had and what makes modern medicine affordable.
Meezly 10:50 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Just read about the effects of United Airlines’ vaccine mandate. Even though 3000 employees have covid, there has been zero hospitalizations. Before the vaccine mandate, they had one employee dying of covid every week. It’s a microcosm of what could happen anywhere. Education takes resources and time while we need immediate action to help ease the overloaded healthcare system.
And besides, I’m not entirely adverse to having the unvaxxed treated like misbehaving, irresponsible citizens.
Joey 10:55 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
@Ephraim what you are proposing is the bottom of the slippery slope that a lot of people are uncomfortable with – that unvaxx taxes will apply to all vaccines, even those that are not likely to end a global pandemic. I see the logic behind it (and the merit of it, tbh), but I would imagine that proposing such a policy would undermine the much more critical goal of getting everyone vaxxed against COVID. I’m surprised Legault isn’t massively expanding the use of the vaccine passport before resorting to a tax, but I suppose it makes sense to pull out the big guns at this particular moment. Seems to be working (though Dube’s tweet implies that 7K appointments were taken after the announcement; I’m sure a bunch happened before).
I’m really curious about the factors that affect someone’s decision to get their first dose at this particular point in time. I would assume it’s either the threat of some repercussion (lost job, tax) or watching someone close struggle with COVID.
Kevin 11:04 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Kate is absolutely correct that this proposal ended all discussion of the Arruda dismissal and the flaws in pandemic response.
But governments have long taxed certain people that indulge in ‘risky’ behaviour (tobacco, alcohol, motorcycles) and there are easily ways to do it and not violate charter rights.
But a couple hundred dollars in income taxes due in April (2023 maybe?) is not going to convince anyone to get vaccinated now
Ephraim 11:19 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
@joey – it costs to to 100X to cover someone unvaccinated. Why should we put our entire system at risk for the few? It’s a societal value.
Joey 11:26 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
@Ephraim because we’re not in the midst of an MMR or Hepatitis pandemic… and thus our healthcare system is not being overrun by unvaccinated people with Measles…
steph 11:34 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
the “system at risk” has is our health care system that’s been slowly sabotaged by neoLiberalism for dozens of years. At this point, putting the blame on the unvaxxed is just lazy. Legault keeps mis-stepping and should be held responsible for it. This weeks theatrics of “tax the unvaxxed” is just another weekly episode of fearmongering – it’s tiresome, but we shouldn’t give in to their other agendas. I;m not saying COVID is invented and fake, but that they’re using it as a scapegoat to push other agendas that have been in the pipes.
Blork 11:52 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Regarding taxing of people for “risky behaviour,” it’s not really the same thing. For one, what you’re taxing is the purchase, not the behaviour, so if I buy a bottle of wine for my neighbour, I’m paying the tax, but my neighbour is the one doing the risky behaviour.
But more importantly, it’s fairly easy to tax a consumption, and maybe even a behaviour, but it’s a whole different thing to tax the ABSENCE of consumption or behaviour. For example, we don’t tax people for NOT exercising regularly. We don’t tax people for NOT eating broccoli.
The only similarity I can think of is that we DO tax (fine) people for NOT wearing a seatbelt or a motorcycle helmet.
jeather 12:04 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
I am about 99% convinced that this was used as a distraction from Arruda resigning, and Legault appointing someone whose daughter is the press secretary to the ministry of health, who runs the group that, in December, was projecting that hospital numbers would be fine and everything was good. They will discuss it for a bit and then it will be memory holed, until a new distraction is needed, maybe.
Ephraim 13:33 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
@Joey we had a measles outbreak a few times in the last year. If people have continued to vaccinate with the MMR, measles would have been eradicated. And it’s a LOT worse than COVID or anything else. The R value is 12 to 18, versus COVID with it’s suggested 2.6 to 2.7. (Measles is so contagious that a person with measles walking through a room of 100 vaccinated people will still infect 1 to 2 people…. and 98 to 100% of the unvaccinated.) 1 in 4 are hospitalized and 1 to 2 per 1000 die. Complications from the MMR are less than 1 per million. Or if you prefer, if 1 per 1000 die that’s 1000 dead versus 1 with complications from the vaccination… a rate of saving 999 people per million.
Ephraim 13:37 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Sorry… last few years. https://www.quebec.ca/en/health/health-issues/a-z/measles/measles-outbreak for a disease that was almost considered eradicated. In 2003 there were just 105 cases in the Americas. It was considered eradicated…. but isn’t anymore.
YUL514 14:05 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Joey, every community has it’s ardent anti vaxxers although I’m sure some more than others. I believe in the US the number of black people vaccinated is way below the average but I understand the reasons for it.
Look at this story from November about the Greek Community here in Montreal/Laval.
https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/after-anti-vax-sentiment-seeps-in-three-die-and-a-tight-knit-community-near-montreal-is-torn-apart-1.5679029
As for Arruda, my thinking was that he didn’t agree with this tax and that’s the reason he stepped down. I believe it was Mulcair that mentioned that one of his sources had said that Arruda wasn’t in favour of this last curfew and he kept bringing up that our healthcare system is broken in meetings which rubbed Legault the wrong way. Well of course it is, we all know our fragile system has been exposed in the past 2 years and Legault is enacting a lot of unnecessary restrictions to show that he’s doing something about it.
YUL514 14:08 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Wanted to add about the CTV link I included, these family members saw someone die from Covid and they still refused to get vaxxed. That’s how demented all these anti vaxxers are, good luck convincing this 5-10% group, they are nuts. Unfortunately I know some and they won’t budge.
walkerp 14:14 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Steph, I agree that the whole health care system needs major improvement and investment, but that is a long-term problem. Given the current gutted system, incentives (be they carrot or stick) are much needed to reduce the immediate pressure on hospitals. We can have the antivax tax and then push for long-term investment in health care and education at the same time. One does not negate the other.
And while no fan of the bullshit “business” philosophy behind the CAQ, they have already spent way more than the Liberals on investment in health care.
Francesco 15:38 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
@YUL514 said “ That’s how demented all these anti vaxxers are, good luck convincing this 5-10% group, they are nuts. Unfortunately I know some and they won’t budge.”
Hit them in the wallet, and all their bluster vaporizes into the air like their cough droplets. I work with more than a few knuckle-draggers who lap up the conspiracy BS and were staunch in their proclamations of body autonomy, but as soon as the Feds issued the mandate for industries they regulate, and the directives tricked down to individual employers, they all called and made appointments. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
walkerp 18:38 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Well put, Francesco.
I find it weird this fatalism about these anti-vaxxers. I guess it comes from trying to argue with them directly, especially if it is somebody in your family or social circles. But these inane ideas are very new for most of them and only glommed onto their brains in the last few years with the unregulated explosion of social media on mobile devices. They can also be removed from their brains and real world financial and legal restrictions are one of the many effective ways to do that.
We also need a full-on attack on the social media companies directly and the criminals who take advantage of their communication channels.
YUL514 23:35 on 2022-01-12 Permalink
Francesco, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately there are still holdouts, my wife works at a federally regulated company with about 15-20K employees, about 400 some odd employees are suspended without pay until they get vaxxed. Most will probably cave soon as I’m not sure where else they’ll earn such a high salary.