Why you shouldn’t say “Bon matin!”
Patrick Lagacé explains why we shouldn’t say “Bon matin” because we already have “Bonjour” and the expression “Bon matin” is a calque of English. But, he admits, it’s sneaking into the language anyway.
He doesn’t mention it, but it doesn’t help that it’s also a brand name that you see around in grocery stores.
mare 10:38 on 2021-08-22 Permalink
A dictionary should document (and explain) what’s used, and not what *should be used*. Words are added to the Webster, the Oxford and Larousse dictionary every year. (And some old words are removed to keep the physical volume of the printed books manageable, but that’s not an issue for digital books so I’m not sure it’s still done.) Words are added originated from other languages, for new technologies, because conics and tv personalities use them or because people like it better that way.
You can use bonjour all day, and bonsoir also exist so why not have a word for good morning specifically? Like for welcoming someone to the breakfast table. Not only English, but German, Italian, Spanish and many other languages have a word for it too, so there’s obviously a need for it…
Kate 10:46 on 2021-08-22 Permalink
The OQLF is not there simply to record usage, but to recommend usage. It has lexicons but they aren’t dictionaries in the hands-off sense that modern linguists prefer.
Uatu 14:02 on 2021-08-22 Permalink
Time to complain to the oqlf about bon matin bread and how they are destroying the French language.
JP 18:02 on 2021-08-22 Permalink
What are the origins of the name “Quebec”? Maybe we should complain about that not being French enough as well.
DeWolf 09:02 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
Some weirdly defensive comments in this thread. Did any of you actually read Lagacé’s column? He’s no language warrior. “Bon matin” annoys him but he recognizes that language evolves in ways that you can’t necessarily control.
In Hong Kong and Singapore, there are a number of English words that are used “incorrectly” but in a very mainstream way, even by highly educated people. One of them is “outlook” to refer to someone or something’s visual appearance. “The brick will give the building an elegant outlook.” “That model has a nice outlook.” If I’m being honest, I find it a little grating, but I also find it quirky and a little endearing. Mixed feelings, in other words. Which is exactly how Lagacé feels about “bon matin.”
denpanosekai 09:27 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
I mostly hear “Bon Matin” from France French people.
Blork 09:42 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
Ye olde “prescriptivist vs. descriptivist” debate, in which it’s rarely heard that the middle ground might be the best way to go. Prescriptivists are deluding themselves if they think that complaining about new and borrowed usage can be pushed back by either complaining about it or ignoring it. And descriptivists are deluding themselves if they think that any new or borrowed usage is automatically legitimate the minute more than two people use it.
There is such a thing as a “mistake” in language. For example, it’s become fairly common for people to refer to green onions, aka “scallions,” as “shallots.” (You see this a lot in the US.) That’s a mistake and it comes from people who simply don’t know their onions, so they use the wrong word. The prescriptivist dictionary entry for “shallots” is to ignore the incorrect definition as if it is never used. The descriptivist dictionary entry for “shallots” is the same as its definition for scallions.
The result in both cases is confusion.
One of the primary goals for a dictionary (or any kind of lexicon) is to clarify and avoid confusion. So the Blork dictionary entry for “shallots” correctly describes shallots and then adds “frequently used incorrectly to refer to scallions.”
Now extrapolate that into all the other areas where language gets fuzzy. For example, the Blork dictionary entry for “outlook” would include the line “used in Hong Kong and Singapore to refer to the visual appearance of a person or thing.” (See DeWolf’s comment above.)
All of this is just my mini-rant that defaulting into descriptivism on every incorrect usage can and does lead to confusion, and it is completely legit to try to intercept bad usage before it becomes mainstream, and once it does become mainstream to grudgingly accept it.
Kate 14:21 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
DeWolf, I worked for a time with a young woman who used “outlook” in exactly the way you describe, but she was a local person, she wasn’t from HK nor had ever spent time there or, as far as I could tell, had ever been connected with anyone who had.
Blork, actually, “shallot” to mean green onions is a super typical Montreal anglo expression. Americans and Ontarians don’t use it. I think we got it here from “échalotes”.
Blork 14:44 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
Not so, Kate. “Shallots” for green onions/scallions is in fairly common (mis)use across the US and even the UK. Google “shallots vs. green onions” and you’ll many sites and blogs explaining the difference, which goes way beyond the Montreal context. I sometimes see YouTube recipes from Australia or the UK where the person says “two green onions, or ‘shallots’ as they call them in America,” etc.
Kate 18:39 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
Maybe it’s just that we call them “shalLOTS” which sounds more like “échalote”? Americans seem to call them SHALlots.
Wiktionary says “shallot” for “scallion” is “Louisiana, Australia”.
Blork 20:33 on 2021-08-23 Permalink
I have no doubt that the error comes from “échalotes.” Around here it’s usually pronounced “shaLOTs” like you say. Either case it’s just as wrong.
…reminds me of Ralph Lauren, the designer. So many people (particularly Montreal anglos) say “Ralph LauRON” as if the last name is “Laurent” like the river. But no, it’s LAURen, spelled and pronounced the same as Lauren Bacall. (Fun fact: he was born Ralph Lifshitz.)
MarcG 10:01 on 2021-08-24 Permalink
Louisiana is interesting because it also has French heritage. Australia on the other hand, who knows what’s going on down there.
Kate 11:13 on 2021-08-24 Permalink
MarcG, one thing Quebec anglos have in common with Australians is that an “entrée” on a menu is a starter. For some odd reason to do with how dinner courses were parted out in the rest of the anglo world, most English speakers think an “entrée” is a main dish.
Thomas 12:35 on 2021-08-24 Permalink
I agree with his point, and there are any number of other calques de l’anglais that one hears all the time and that also offend my sensibilities as someone who learned French in school as opposed to dans la rue or dans la vraie vie. But to get upset about bon matin or other anglicisms is to be at odds with life in Quebec itself.
While I take immense pride in my own mastery of the French language, I’ve given up judging or getting upset about general usage in Quebec. In fact, I’ve even started using anglicisms that I know are incorrect just to fit in and better integrate into Quebec society. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em…