Montreal City Weblog

Kate 08:04 on 2019-09-30 Permalink Reply  

• Chris 08:29 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  They don’t say how they define “Jew” (cultural or religious), so the 16% figure doesn’t mean much.

• jeather 12:02 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  Presumably people who claim they are Jews, which is the usual way to count it. (Not sure if this normally includes Messianic “Jews”.)

• Ephraim 15:27 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  Actually, the Hasidic are “messianic cults”. Which is why you see they sometimes have signs referring to Mossiach (messiah). Those who call themselves “Jews for Jesus” aren’t really Jewish anymore… once you accept a different religion, you can’t claim to be Jewish anymore, really. And those on the far end of the spectrum (and Ashkenazi) are anti-Israel, you even see them protesting against Israel on Israel’s independence day in Montreal. The Lubavich are actually Israel neutral. The Sephardic ultra religious are generally supporters of Israel. (Confused yet?)

  Generally in Montreal, the largest community is likely the Mizrachi/Young Israel, Western jews, some who wear kippahs and some who don’t, but if they do, it’s a knitted kippah and they sort of meld in with everyone else. Sometimes hiding their kippah under hats, so you don’t even see them. More orthodox than reform, conservative or reconstructionists, though there are synagogues/temples of all those off shoots.

• jeather 15:45 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  Messianic “Jews” (a superset including Jews for Jesus) are indeed not Jewish, though some claim to be, but getting into the intricacies of calling Hasidim messianic is . . . complex and makes things more difficult to follow. You can be Jewish and have all sorts of opinions on Israel (many Hasidic groups are anti-Zionist). Honestly I have no idea why you brought up Israel, as it turns a religious/cultural question into a political one well outside the scope of that article.

• Ephraim 18:35 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  Jeather, because it’s important to understand that these groups are not the mainstream at all. And that they aren’t uniform either. Naturei Karta, for example, actually used to donate to the PLO. And Satmar is built on the premise that holocaust was caused because Jews weren’t religious enough (which in itself is a sin). And their view on Zionism is directly related to the fact that they are messianic… believing that Zionism lengthens the time that it will take for messiah to come… and they want him to come sooner. Belz, one of the better groups, but still anti-Zionist. While as you move towards the centre, you get groups like Chabad/Lubavitch, which doesn’t wear the old clothing and is Israel neutral. and the Sephardi ultra orthodox, which aren’t anti-zionist. You see pictures of their leader sometimes around Montreal… Schneerson (who died and created a rift, some believing that he is the messiah and will reappear – sound like something we have heard before, about someone else?)

  Jews for Jesus is not considered Jews by any part of mainstream Judaism… these are converts to Christianity. Also, proselytizing is strictly forbidden under Jewish law… so handing out those pamphlets is another proof that they aren’t Jewish.

• Chris 20:46 on 2019-10-01 Permalink

  As you’ve both demonstrated, there are many definitions. Which is why it seems really weird to claim an exact number like 16% (not even something vaguer like 1/5th) without even providing a definition for what you’re measuring. Hopefully the actual book is more detailed.

• jeather 09:01 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  I’m not sure how much clearer I could have been that Messianic Jews are not Jewish every time.

  Chris, the two of us are agreeing about who is Jewish, we’re just picking around the edges of different belief systems. There aren’t really that many definitions in common use, though I agree the book should explain which one they chose.

• Chris 09:54 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  jeather, for me, the big dividing line is Jews that believe in Yahweh vs those that don’t. In the US, about 1/4 of Jews don’t believe a god. https://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/chapter-4-religious-beliefs-and-practices/

• Kate 10:07 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  Chris, are you mansplaining Judaism to jeather?

• jeather 10:46 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  Ok, and you’re calling them Jews, and I’m also calling them Jews, and it’s a pretty acceptable stance since Spinoza so . . . I don’t get what the point is? Common use definitions of “who is a Jew?” do not regularly exclude Jewish atheists and agnostics.

• jeather 10:50 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  In case it’s not clear, I am a Jewish atheist (who would be considered a Jew by, as far as I know, every standard).

• Kate 13:05 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  Ephraim, a Christian cousin of mine posted an “uplifting” quote recently over a picture of Menachem Mendel Schneerson. I don’t think she had any idea who he was except he was a kindly looking old man.

• Chris 14:27 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  Kate, no; why do you say that? You may be reading into my words something that’s not there.

  There’s no word, that I’m aware of, for “believer in Judaism, the religion” other than “Jew”. Let me coin “Judaist”. Hasidics are notable for their, let’s say, devoted Judaism. I’m wondering: are they 16% of Judaists or 16% of “Jews”? Hopefully that’s clearer.

• jeather 14:33 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  You’re making up a separation that isn’t real, Chris. No one counts “Judaists” (which I am reading as Jews who believe in God) because it’s not a particularly useful measure.

• Ephraim 14:43 on 2019-10-02 Permalink

  Chris – Simple, if your mother was a Jew, you are a Jew, without any requirement to believe. And that right is passed down through the mother. In fact, in China, where they suddenly switched and passed down through the father, they were required to reconvert back into Orthodoxy to be accepted as Jews.

  And yes, there are Chinese Jews (Kaifeng Jews), Black Jews (Falasha as well as African American), Bukharin, and even Indian Jews (who have been in India since the destruction of the temple), etc.

  You can leave the Jewish religion, like accepting Jesus, but you are either born into it, or converted and if you converted, it’s a LONG process and you have to start it, since it’s against the religion to try to convert someone.